Dog Forum Message Board

Hi,

My wife and I started looking for a mini Goldendoodle puppy around early March. We found one that we agreed was ideal available through *****(removed by mod)*****Goldendoodles located on Vancouver Island, BC (www.*****************.com/). We requested health documentation for the parents of this pup from the lady in charge of the operation on April 4, 2010. She quickly sent us some information on the father but promised to get back to us with information on the mother the next day. Knowing this, we went ahead, signed a contract and provided *********** with a $500 deposit.
After having not received the missing health documents, I reminded the lady that we needed this documentation on April 14. It turned out that she was unable to find all of the documentation for the mother, and sent documentation for the mother’s siblings instead, and let us know that it was not likely that she would be able to provide the necessary documentation before she delivered the puppy on April 23.

I am sorry you got ripped off, but really its absolutely no surprise at all.

1. there is no such thing as a goldendoodle. its a mutt. A mixed breed dog combining two other recognize purebred dogs. Putting two purebred dogs of differing breeds together does not a new breed make. it takes generations and generations and generations of breeding, and a set plan. "oodle" breeds are nothing more than a disreputable breeders way to charge BIG bucks for a mutt.

2. Even worse, there is no such thing as a Mini Goldendoodle.

3. This forum is a purebred breed forum. You will note there are no "oodle" breeds or breeders on the breeder list.

4. if you really want a mixed breed dog, the shelters are FULL of "oodle" dogs. At a substiantially lower cost than what you will pay from one of these "Pups for Bucks" breeders.

Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue Colorado

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Hi,

My apologies if my post on a mixed breed is out of place on a site meant for purebred dogs, I will be sure to post elsewhere in th future. That said, your points address an entirely different issue than the one I have raised here. I will interpret your comments to mean 'don't post topics on mutts here', and not something that addresses anything I've discussed.

Possibly the communication between you and the breeder was not the best. This unfortunately happens in some situations, but if she has returned your deposit you can't say she is unprofessional. You cannot expect more than that. It does sound like you were suspicious of her and of course she knew that, so she decided to terminate a potentially difficult future relationship. I can't blame her for that. Often when things start out on the wrong foot they never seem to be made right again and it lays the groundwork for future difficulties. Also, one month is nothing to wait for a puppy. I have people on my waiting list for over 6 months!

Be glad that the relationship ended now. With a difficult beginning
you may see everything suspiciously and not believe other things that she may say in the future. For example, let's say the puppy takes a long time to house train, for whatever reason, probably the lack of structure in the new environment. You may believe that the breeder did not start the puppy properly and decide she is not a 'good' breeder, or even worse, decide that the puppy has a physical problem and try to challenge her on the health of the puppy. So, you take the dog to the vet and tell them how you have done everything to housetrain this puppy and it is just not working. It must be the dog. You convince the vet that you have a done a such great job at providing a good schedule and the puppy is just not responding. So, the vet, in an effort to appease his new client decides to do a lot of expensive tests and very soon the vet bills go up. You call the breeder to tell her and she gives you more housetraining advice, but you don't believe her, because it just can't possibly be your fault. Besides, you tell her, your vet has just ordered a bunch of test and you spent $400 in vet bills, so it has to be a physical problem. You insist she sold you a defective puppy. See how this goes? Starts with a lack of trust.

Also, the breeder always has the right to decline selling a puppy. A good breeder is always interested in the long term well being of the puppy. I try very hard with my puppies to give them the best possible start in life and truly feel like I go above and beyond, as do many good breeders. If I sense that the new home is in any way uncomfortable with me or my puppy, or I am unsure about them, I find it best to terminate the agreement. I can't have people second guessing the health and quality of my puppies. It will eventually affect the puppy. In the example I just gave, look at all the tests the puppy is subjected to and we know it will not solve the housetraining problem. Unfortunately I have seen this very problem a few years ago.

A last note about Gooldendoodles, mixed dogs and purebred dogs. First, I have to say that I love dogs. All dogs. But, I am very dedicated to purebred dogs where people have for many generations consciously and consistently bred their dogs to a specific breed standard, taking into account health and temperament. Yes, I admire the big shaggy dogs and find the goldendoodles to have a very endearing look about them. But I would never-ever-ever take a quality purebred bitch and intentionally breed it to a dog of another breed. I would never diminish my breeding program like that by purposely losing the opportunity for a quality breeding. I would never sell a puppy to someone that would do that. I don't know of any quality breeder that would intentionally produce a mixed breed litter of puppies or sell to someone with the intention of producing mixed breed dogs. So, from the very beginning of the Goldendoodle puppy process, you are starting off with inferior parents obtained from a questionable background. Although the goldendoodles or other Poodle mixed breed dogs (i.e. cocker-poo) have been around for a few generations, they do not have a breed standard and are not purebred dogs. It is unfortunate, but people who breed these mixed breed dogs, while they may love the dogs, do not do it to improve the dogs or to create a standard. They have a different motivation than that of a purebred breeder. There is rarely a genetic history of the breeding pair and the recorded health of the pedigree ( I use the word pedigree very loosely) is non-existent. I breed purebred dogs where we do extensive tests before breeding and we keep a history of all the health issues not only in our bloodline, but in the breed's bloodline. If a dog does not pass these health tests they are spayed or neutered to permanently remove them from the breeding program. The health and well-being of the breed is the utmost importance. This simply doesn't happen with mixed breed dogs. The motivations are different. All this must be taken into account before venturing into the world of over-priced mixed breed dogs.

I'm sorry you feel taken advantage of, but why would you sign a contract if health info was not made available? That is a huge red flag -- aside from it being a mixed breed Oodle which is a red flag in itself.

You can now do proper research through a real breed club to find a reputable breeder and have all the puppy equipment on hand for the big day when you bring home a well researched puppy. Or you can go to a shelter and adopt an oodle mix who needs a good home.

Count this as a lesson learned, and one that you learned cheaply. You have no vet bills to complain of and you got you deposit back.

To the contrary mnesbitt. My points address exactly the problem. You feel ripped off because you dealt with a mixed breed breeder....WHO...breed for $$$$$$$ and no other reason. The problems you have, and the result are directly because of that. My points were those exactly.

There is NO such breed as an OODLE anything. it is nothing more than a fancy name attached to a mixed breed dog, so that the breeder can charge ridiculous amounts of money for what is essentially a mutt. Period...and no one likes to hear that the dog they paid 1000$ for is a mutt.

its a hard lesson learned. posting it on this forum, falls on deaf ears because...there are no oodle breeds/breeders, and one one here looking for them because they are not listed, SO...given that, what value is posting information about an oodle breeder, on a purebred form going to accomplish? Nothing, except an opportunity for you to vent about a negative experience...which it obviously was and your jusitified in feeling as you do.

You seem to have had a contract, and the contract was fullfilled, and it appears it was because you got your money back..then what is the problem? If your not going to look for another dog, then donate the items to the local shelter, and feel positive about helping other dogs in need, OR..adopt a dog from the shelter or a local resuce group..and REALLY help out the dogs.

IF you do not want a rescue dog, and many folks do not, then actively pursue and learn what a good responsible breeder is and find a quality dog to be your companion.

Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue Colorado

No Part of this msg may be forwarded without the author's permission

I will briefly address points:

BlesstheDogs: Thanks for your points, and I agree that I should be glad that the relationship was broken off first. However, my need to see the documents had nothing to do with not trusting the breeder, it ahd to do with me practicing due diligence and i made sure I communicated that. Additionally, I agree that no breeder should sell puppies to someone who will not take care of them, but in my case, the breeder admitted freely that she thought we would be great dog owners, even after the falling out. Finally, I know that this is a forum that focuses on purebreeds so I understand that this crowd may not have an ear for my story, but I have heard all the points for and against mixed breeds and have made up my own mind on what I think is morally right and wrong. I do appreciate pure breeders goal of providing a stock that conforms to set standards.

Kendelwaltz: Good point about the signing of a contract before getting the documentation. All I can say is we trusted the breeder, and asked of rit at the time we signed the document. Maybe we should not have been so trusting. As for vet bills, I would take a mixed breed over a purebred dog any day. Saying anything otherwise is like saying you and your cousin would be likely to have a healthier child than would you and a stranger.

AnkuhlGs: You do not address my point. Just because this breeder handles mixed dogs does not mean she has no scruples. This could have happened with a purebred breeder just as easily and to suggest any differently is a biased way to further your own agenda rather than to address any of the issues in my original post. It is clear you have your own agenda when you smear all mixed breed breeders with the same brush, saying they are in it for the money only.
You then talk about my post falling on deaf ears, well I said earlier that if I was posting on the wrong forum then I will be sure not to do it again. As for you pointing out that I got my money back, the only thing that means is that I am not talking about a thief. Professionalism means conducting business with maturity and integrity and I didn't see that in our relationship.

Sorry mnestitt, but whereever you get your information about the health of mixed breeds over purebreds is obviously not a health database service.

Fact is that genetics are genetics. You cannot alter them...well at least we do not currently have that technology.

Fact: if you breed two dogs together (regardless of breed) that have a genetic predisposition to produce a particular health problem, THEY WILL produce it...regardless if those two dogs are Poodles, or if those dogs are a Poodle and a Golden Retriever. IF both carry the gene for HD, then the resulting mixed breed puppies WILL probably all have HD. its just a fact of nature, and yes the same can be said of breeding 2 Poodles together.

No one denies there are bad breeders out there, but the point behind breeding is to breed a better dog, NOT breed money for your wallet and that is the ONLY motivation that mixed breed breeder have PERIOD.

responsible breeders do health testing, register those results, make the publicly available on the various health test databases, so that you do not have to go thro the process you did. It would have been available with ONE click.

being as "oodles" are not a recognized breed, and at the rate these Pups for Bucks breeders are going, they never will be because the POINT behind developing a new breed is a plan, ...one that is well laid out, thoughtful, with a goal in mind and CONTROL over the breeding program. This means all NON breeding dogs ARE spay/neutered before placement and a really GOOD breeder would put in the contract that health testing MUST be done even on pet puppies in order to make sure the gene pool is healthy.

No responsible breeder would KNOWINGLY contribute a dog to an "oodle" breeding program, ergo, it is fact that none of the dogs in "oodle" breeding programs are quality dogs. "oodle" dogs cannot be registered except in the faux paper registries created by the pups for bucks breeders....which again is simply something that they have discovered is a great sales gimic for getting MORE money out of potential buyers.

Oh..i am sure there are alot of "professional" oodle breeders out there....but the key word there is professional..meaning this is a profession..and one which has to produce money...or it is not a very viable profession..now is it?

There is absolutley NO money in breeding quality dogs, and doing it correctly. it is a 100% money loosing operation, and it is done specifically to breed a better, and healthier dog, that has a great temperament and will make an long term companion for a well screened family.

No..i doubt i will change your mind, and really, it does not matter, but you really need to do alot more research on what a responsible breeder is, what a responsible breeding program is...and check out places like petfinder..and see just how many "oodle" breeds are listed..looking for homes. Once the novelty of "ooo look at my exciting new breed!!!" wears off..and the health problems pop up...they are very quickly dumped in shelters and non breed specific rescue groups...why?? because oodle breeders DO NOT CARE about the dogs they produce..there for..they do not care that they wind up in shelters. Responsible breeders take back any dog they breed at any time in its life, for any reason...so that it does not burden the shelter system. yes there are also lots of pure bred dogs listed, but 95% of them are with breed specific rescue groups that have a national base. There are no national "oodle" rescue groups because the breeders do not care enough to set one up, fund it and manage it, nor can they handle the vast numbers of "oodle" mutts they produce.

Those...are the facts of Purebred vs Mutts. I will take a pure bred any day, from a responsible breeder, because i KNOW...they have put alot of effort, and education, and years of knowledge into producing a healthy dog, that will DO what it is supposed to do, and contrary to popular thought....often they cost substantially less, that designer oodle dogs...because they were not bred for $$$$$$$$

Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue Colorado

No Part of this msg may be forwarded without the author's permission

"As for vet bills, I would take a mixed breed over a purebred dog any day. Saying anything otherwise is like saying you and your cousin would be likely to have a healthier child than would you and a stranger."

You are quite foolish then. Line breeding is done to cement in traits that are desired - some physical, some mental, some health - but it is not done just to produce a litter. Outcrossing to nonrelated lines is quite common. What you are missing is that good breeders, purebred breeders, do health testing and can tell you with certainty that the puppy you are buying is free from "abc", is a carrier for "efg", or could run the of "xyz". We know that if we breed bitch A to Dog B we will get certain results and that if we breed to Dog C we will see another set of results. And we can count on our breeds' health database to have the info we need to verify health.

Greeders who specialize in mixes or "rare" anything, are only doing it for money. I stand by what I said, you're lucky to have gotten out withno vet bills.

And if you felt you made the right moral decision by spending your money with an oodle breeder than a shelter - for the same mixed breed pet - I pity you and your morals.

The reason many are NOT addressing you complaint, but again going on and on about the whole designer dog thing is to educate you.. not be a snob.. you are about or where about to spend a LOT of money on a dog..and that dog should be more than just 2 dogs bred.. it should be part of a planned program.. ALL extensive expensive HEALTH testing to ensure that the 2 dogs in question are good enough to breed.. and a breeder who is not just producing a ton of puppies just to fill the pet market.. and NOT taking responsiblity for thoes puppies the FOR LIFE.. and from a breeder who gives you the information you want.. and not just get cash from you as quick as possible.. or give you attitude for asking..

By your own words you expressed concern with going on with the sale that you had NOT been provided with the health information..

The breeders response was to say you called them a lier..geeze that is childish.. but at least you got your deposit back.. SO what is your complaint?

Then you state the heatlth paperwork issue had nothing to do with trusting the breeder but due diligance?... What the HECK does this mean.. oh, you do not care about it? you just think the person is nice, and want a puppy NOW.. The fact that it was not provided but you where ok with sending the deposit.. then even when it still did not show up you still wanted a puppy.. and you still trust breeder????

My god man.. where you born yesterday? And frankly SHAME on you for being so trusting and willing to overlook somthing that is by fact pretty much a basic practive with a responsible breeder..
Propper hip EYE and ELBOW clearances on BOTH paraents SHOULD have been provided to you BEFORE you had to send, or the breeder accepted your deposit..
You should have not needed to ASK for it in the first place!!! oh and proper health paperwork sould be OFA, CERF and PENN hip not to mention several DNA testing done ON the parents..
IT is NOT just a health certificate, vaccination record from a vet... was this what you got? or did you actually get the propper health certification?

How in HELL does a breeder Not have it on hand?.. geeze give me a break..
Seems like really good record keeping at this kennel.. let alone what else this might indicate...

I am sorry you do not get your PUPPY now.. Sorry but the fact you are so attached to the dog even before you had a chance to meet it..

I see a complaint that the only thing that bothers you is you frnakly is not the reputation, or quality of the breeders but you seem cheated that you did not get your pup on DEMAND you wanted..

IF you are such a good pet owner.. the DO your reaerch and frankly if you are going to BUY a dog.. MAKE sure that everthing is right before you send them money.. you have a animal that will end up being a 10+ year commitment, not to mention at least a 10,000-30,000 lifetime investment.. be prepared to work for it and take time to find the right dog for you and your family..

So you know.. Homes the "reputable" hobby breeders deal with spend MONTHS if not a year sometimes looking for the right breed and dog.. they generally have met interviewed several other breeders before deciding on one.. This is NORMAL.. Many of these same buyers generally do have all the supplies on hand.. often before a litter may even be bred.. they are prepared for the commitment..


Amanda