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Sasquatchdogs
6/30/2008 10:04:24 AM
Posts: 112
It's been a while since we've had a good conversation on the board so I thought I would bring up a thought...Don't beat me over the head though! I just wanted to get a good discussion and other thoughts from you all

I currenlty have a litter which as always is sold to only carefully approved homes on a contract etc. However, we really have very little "control" over the new owners once we have signed over a pup-even with a contract. (I know co-ownership could help solve this also-different topic to discuss!) I am now struggling about providing limited vs. full registrations and here's why...The puppy mill registries (as we all know) will issue papers to a cow/pig whatever and give it papers. We make this especially easy to register with any registry when we provide a pedigree with each pup. For those who are going to breed at some point even though we given a limited registration are we contributing? The average pet buyer has no clue and doesn't care about registries. So, if we don't provide full registrations are we (acting as responsible breeders) contributing to the success of the puppymill registries?

This is just something I'm beating around in my head. Give me your kind thoughts. I have been thinking about this for quite a while and am struggling in finding the "right" answer.

Thanks!
Domena
6/30/2008 11:56:12 AM
Posts: 25
Simply withhold the AKC papers until proof of spay/neuter is furnished by the owner. The AKC allows a dog to be sold without papers as long as the seller does not "sell" papers for an additional price. Write it into your contract and provide a receipt for the purchase of the dog without papers pending spay/neuter. Also the AKC suggests that in such cases you do not provide AKC information on the sire and dam. See the AKC regs at
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RREGS2.pdf




Andrea
Kivalina Siberian Huskies and
Polish Lowland Sheepdogs
www.pawtown.com/kivalina
AnkhuIGs
6/30/2008 12:35:54 PM
Posts: 1904
Fact is you cannot stop them from registering the dogs even IF your a co-owner. However you can slow them down. I now register my litters in AKC and UKC.....I register each puppy in MY name only in the AKC until proof of spay/neuter is provided. My contract states they will be signed on when this is provided,and a copy of the existing registration is provided.

I also register my litters in the UKC, BUT...i do not register the puppies. Because i registered the litter, owners of the puppies cannot take the AKC registration and single register the dog in the UKC, and take me off as an owner, because i am the breeder. They haev to get written permission from me to do so, and you have to know, if someone does this, i am NOT about to give them permission.

Even tho it changes nothing as far as AKC is concerned, i still use Limited registration because it prevents anyone from selling the papers or using them as a basis for registering litters from other dogs using those papers.

Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue Colorado

No Part of this msg may be forwarded without the author's permission
Sasquatchdogs
6/30/2008 12:44:00 PM
Posts: 112
Thanks! Those are both excellent ideas. I haven't thought about not giving the papers at all...duh! I am such an AKC minded person (I know they are far from perfect but the best we have at this point) that I never even thought about keeping the papers until proof of spay/neuter is sent. And like you've mentioned it won't stop anyone but it might slow them down. I love that idea! I knew you guys would have great thoughts about this! Thank you
sibergal
6/30/2008 12:53:41 PM
Posts: 676
You can keep the papers. You can also offer a "rebate" on proof of spay/neuter. Funny thing is almost all of our puppy people never even reg. their puppies. All they want is a pet & that's it.

Cindy - Aleut Siberians
AKAussieLover
6/30/2008 5:15:54 PM
Posts: 75
Is this an option? I know a local rescue group has all of their puppies spayed/neutured at 8 weeks before they let them be adopted. If you are adopting out a pet quality pup, would you allow it to be spayed/neutured before letting it go to it's permanent home, to prevent anyone from breeding a pup they shouldn't? (I hope this isn't a threadjack, btw.)
AnkhuIGs
7/1/2008 5:10:19 AM
Posts: 1904
Early spay/neuter is still up in the air for me. I sit in two camps on it.

FOR rescue, and its purposes, we DO early spay/neuter on puppies. Altho i am NOT totally comfortable with the 8 week thing, personally we hold on to puppies in foster care until they are 12 weeks, THEN we do spay neuter.

FOR my dogs, honestly i just am not sold ENOUGH on early spay/neuter to do it on my own breedings. So i am willing to hold them until they are 6 months before doing it.

Sounds hypocritical, that i do it on rescue, but not on my own. Difference is with mine, its MY money and time. When its rescue, its rescues money and time, and a spot held by a 12 week old puppy waiting to grow up to 6 months might mean another dog that NEEDS to come into rescue, cannot, so we have to weigh all those factors when making choices about vetting on rescue dogs.

Serena Galloway
IGCA rescue Colorado

No Part of this msg may be forwarded without the author's permission
Sasquatchdogs
7/1/2008 10:19:17 AM
Posts: 112
I don't know what the thinking is on small or medium breeds but research is linking early spay/neuter (before 12 mos) in giant/large breeds to torn CCLs (cranial cruciat ligament).

I have had four friend with dogs requiring surgery for torn CCLs and all were spayed at 6 mos old. I then called other giant owners of dogs either not spayed/neutered or done after 12 months and not one single other dog had had any problems. Something to consider and perhaps keep data on within our own dogs.

Until more is know here I'm not comfortable with early spay/neuters. I just don't think we know enough yet. I follow the thought process though! Thanks
AKAussieLover
7/1/2008 5:38:53 PM
Posts: 75
Thanks for the responses, I wasn't aware of the info on torn CCLs. Many of the larger rescue dogs don't have someone to follow their medical futures so I don't think we'll know the affects of it unless someone does something formal with purebreds, more than likely.

I wish it were feasible to hold the rescue pups until 12 weeks of age, but with the mixed breeds up here (rottie/husky, lab/husky, shepherd/husky, rottie/shepherd, ect) there are too many people giving away pups that are as little as 6 weeks old and the desire for anything as old as 12 weeks is a lot less. So unfortunately, the biproduct would be rescue groups going under and having to stop rescue. The abilities of purebred rescues are a lot broader, especially for dogs as hard to come by as IGs.

Good food for thought though....I have medium sized dogs so I don't know if the risk is there or not for CCLs.
Lynai
7/6/2008 4:16:06 PM
Posts: 4
Hi Sasqatchdog and all,
Nothing like being new to a board (waves at everyone) and leaping right in. You know, I have struggled with the limited/full registration issue myself.

Here is why. Alot of times buyers are intimidated by some of the "fort knox" type of contracts people place on their pups. These buyers are basically good people that know nothing about breeding, limited vs unlimited reg., and for the most part they don't care. However, perhaps in the back of their mind they are thinking...hmmmmmmm, perhaps someday I might want to breed my wonderful little dog. They then turn away from the the fort knox breeder and end up looking at some miller's pup or backyard pup. Not knowing any better, they purchase an inferior dog, no testing and a couple years down the line, they replicate the whole cycle.

Now I offer full registration with stipulations and here is why.
Number one, it keeps the lines of communication open between me and a buyer. There is no reason to lie to me in the begining about your intentions for one of my pups. I then have the opportunity to educate a potential buyer as to the expenses and time commitment it takes to breed quality dogs.
If I deny them outright, there is nothing stopping them from lying to me, getting the pup, registering it with APR or some such place and producing dogs without my consent or even knowlege. At least if I keep the option open (with some stipulations) I can offer guidance and at least help them make an informed decision. I also offer a rebate for spaying/neutering.

I have a clause in my contract that the pup purchased must be OFA hip and CERF tested before any future breeding takes place as well as only being bred to a purebred of the same species and not millers or brokers allowed ect...This allows them to openly contemplate breeding, but brings to the forefront some of the very basic genetic and ethical issues people should be concerned about when breeding. Something millers don't care about and byb's are ignorant of.

My point is, I honestly beleive the reason millers and backyard breeders are so successful is that they don't care who purchases there pups, and this is attractive to a new dog owner intimidated by some of the stiffer contracts out there.

Heck, I was reading one that gave a 5 grand fine for ever infraction of the contract as well as maintaining breeding rights and approval over what dog may breed the pup in the future. I know, these are awesome breeders that care deeply about what they are producing, but I think they can be very intimidating to a new pup buyer, sheesh, what am I saying, they are intimidating to me too!

However, because of such strict contracts I think we as breeders unintentionally send a lot of ignorant buyers into millers and backyard breeders outstretched arms.

I'm not saying my way is right by any means, but it does work for me and I have talked people out of breeding and into spaying and neutering many times, an opportunity I was glad to have and an open dialogue I try to foster.

Just my opinion


Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's much too dark to read. ----Groucho Marx
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